Frances and Anna Lappé

You've both been so dedicated about getting important information to the public on a variety of topics, ranging from responsible eating to political activism and community involvement. To each of you: What's on your mind, right now?

Frances: I'm in the first few weeks of traveling with my new book [Getting A Grip], which has to do with the way messages about the global crises are framed. On the one hand, one can hear these messages as 'we've hit a wall,' 'we’ve hit the limits of what the earth can do,' 'the party's over, we've depleted nature.' Without belittling the magnitude of what we face as a species, I find myself feeling that this isn't it. In fact, you can't deplete nature—that's not in line with the laws of physics. You can disrupt nature, and that's what we're doing. Yes, we can run out of dirty fossil fuels that are polluting and killing species and threatening lives. What I'm thinking about today is: How do I get better at challenging what I call the mechanical, moralistic world view, and how do I counter that more effectively with an ecological, empowering world view. A lot of the environmental messages are still trapped in 'less is more.' It's important to wake people up to how dire things are, but we're defeating ourselves if we do that while we disempower them. Anna: What's been on my mind is the incredible global ripple effects of our actions. I just got back from China, where I was on a study tour with a group called Heifer International. So much of what China is producing in a very environmentally damaging way are cheap consumer goods for our demand. I was in China for fourteen days, and saw blue sky only once. My friends in China told me that when you ask school kids what color the sky is, they'll say grey. I met someone from Korea who said that they now have yellow dust, acid rain, and incredible pollution haze from China. And now, much of the air pollution in Los Angeles is from China. Pollution is getting outsourced. What could be more of a metaphor for the interconnectedness of the planet than smog in L.A. driven by the production in China of cheap goods for the US market? Frances: Fossil fuel's huge subsidies are the industries that have been supporting the elections. It is possible to make sure that we're not continuing to support them. I'm so excited about a movement for public financing now called Clean Elections, which has been effective in both Maine and Arizona for almost a decade (for more information, go to publicampaign.org).

Frances, when you were raising Anna, did you hope that she would be someone who would share your ideals and beliefs? What if she grew up and became Paris Hilton? And Anna, what was the extent of your adolescent rebellion phase?

Frances: I guess every parent panics that their passion for something will create a rebellion that will take the next generation in the opposite direction. I certainly had my moments like that, but not in any really severe form. For one, we had a lot of experiences together. I took Anna and her brother to Guatemala and on other trips with me when they were kids. My son, Anthony Lappé, is a filmmaker and a writer. We learned about the real world together. That was the spirit I was trying to create. Anna: As one of my friends, who also works with his parent, put it: 'There are plenty of things to rebel against in this world. I certainly didn't need to rebel against my father.' I feel the same way about my mother. I never felt like she was trying to force me to be a certain way. I grew up sharing her values and asking the same questions: Why are we on this planet? How do we make sense of the world? It's very natural that our work is aligned. I never felt a need to rebel.

What have you taught each other?

Frances: It can be captured in a few words: 'Lighten up, Mom!' Actually, I think I, relatively speaking, have a light spirit, but I can never hear that message too much. She's such a creative, visual person, and an incredible organizer: She and I started the Small Planet Fund together, to give back to, among other organizations, the tree-planting movement, the green belt movement in Kenya. So far we've given away about a quarter of a million dollars. Anna: She has never stopped asking big questions and constantly creating new chapters in her life. There's something so inspiring about that, the idea that life is a constant inquiry.

Frances, you wrote A Diet For A Small Planet in 1971, and now finally the green movement has exploded. Are you pleased with this? Or is the world coming to the table much later than you expected?

I am jumping up and down. It was a long time coming. Recently, somebody came up to me after a speech and said: 'I read your book when I was 12, and when I decided to become a vegetarian, my mom sent me to a psychiatrist.' I thought, That's progress. Nobody's sending their kids to psychiatrists for vegetarianism these days. The fact that organic is the fastest-growing part of our food system, that there is now a recognition of the value of the small farm, and serious concern about the miles that our food travels, and that industrial agriculture is destroying more than it's producing—all these things are becoming a part of the conversation in a way that they have never been. I recently learned that there are more co-ops being started now then there were in the '70s when the whole thing got underway. The message of Diet for a Small Planet was something that I had to share, meaning, that the world has plenty of food for us all; we can't blame nature for the scourge of hunger in the world, and that we are just wasting and destroying the earth's abundance. I grew up in the stockyards in Fort Worth, Texas. The idea that you could even get by without meat was heretical to so many people. How could I see this and the Ph.Ds and the developmental economists could not? I now think of this as the power of the beginner's eyes. I really stress with young people today to just trust their basic 'why not?' questions.

Anna, what perspective do you bring, generationally speaking, as you work alongside your mother?

I wouldn't necessarily say that I speak for my whole generation, but in the case of a lot of my friends and colleagues…we're savvy about the attempt by companies to sell us on the idea of their being eco-friendly without really making a change. I think there's a healthy skepticism about that. Change will come as we think about changing the electoral process. We can't make change just with our consumer dollars.

You both are so skilled in sending empowering messages to your readers. What are some ways a person can get centered and become more effective in the often chaotic social climate?

Anna: All change, all action, for most of us brings with it some aspect of fear. Energy can transform fear into the inspiration to act. My mom's book You Have the Power speaks to this in a very accessible way, and I strongly recommend it. Frances: In its companion book, the one I'm now on tour with, Getting A Grip, one of the questions I ask is: What are the forces that are driving us in a downward spiral? It helps me have tremendously more courage if I can believe that what I'm doing is not just some random act but is actually something that is reversing the causal flows that are taking our species down, and a lot of others with it. Getting A Grip is about looking at these patterns of causes so everything doesn't seem like it's one issue after another bombarding us, that there is some pattern that we can identify, starting with a premise of lack, and turning our power over to others. The question of how we elect people is not separate from the food we put into our mouths, or our choice to support local or organic.

What are three things people can do who want to be green but don't know where to begin?

Anna: Visit a farmers' market, and have that be part of your habit. It's a way to vote with your dollars and put your money directly into the hands of people who are doing some of the country's most vital work, which is growing healthy food. At a farmers' market, you see what's in season, and you get a sense of what your environment produces. Third, it connects you with your local community, and fourth, it's one of the best ways to get the freshest, most healthy foods. If you go to localharvest.org and put your zip code in, you'll be able to find the farmers' market in your community. I would also suggest turning off your televisions. More and more people are starting to think about the food they put into their bodies, and are also realizing that we're affected by the images that we put into our bodies when we expose ourselves to the media, i.e., advertisements for toxic food. Frances: And on that same point: As you change your media diet, choose venues that bring in stories of possibility. There are many publications we recommend on our site, like the Independent Media Center and the Free Press where people can read about ordinary folks who are making enormous changes. Bringing that into our lives on a daily basis is absolutely vital. It's hard to feel empowered alone. Talk with a buddy who you think might be interested in making a change with you. Look and see what's going on in your community. Give it a try. Go to one meeting and get out of your comfort zone. Try making some connections with people you think might be excited about the changes that you want to make. On the Internet, there's meetup.org which offers a way for people to get involved in their community, and there's a tool called Conversation Café that a friend of ours created.

Can you recommend any favorite green products?

Anna: Local products from your farmers' market. Seek out a locally owned food cooperative in your community. I would also suggest Organic Valley—most stores in most parts of the country have their products. They make milk, butter, cheeses, and meat in some markets. Frances: In the '80s, I met the Organic Valley folks. Back then, they were a gathering of well-intended dairy farmers who were upset because so many Wisconsin dairy farmers were going under. They talked about creating a dairy co-op, and I thought, what a nice idea. Now I'm buying their products in Boston, where I live. There are almost a thousand Organic Valley farms and it's still being run in this democratic way, where farmers are being involved in core decision making about how Organic Valley operates. It is an example of something that I would have given almost no chance of success, and it has taken off, which is very exciting. Overall, we stress supporting your local economy, small businesses. It's not so much brand names as an approach to shopping.

What's your eco-sin?

Frances: Anything that has to be imported would, for me, be in that category. So, I'd say coffee and chocolate. Anna: I went through a stint of doing a lot of Bikram yoga. I stopped doing it because I thought about how heating those rooms must be so environmentally impactful.

What does green mean to you?

Frances: Now unfortunately when I hear the word 'green,' I think products. What Anna and I are saying is that green is a rich and rewarding way of life in which we are aligned as part of nature, that actually is not about products at all. Anna: I tend not to use the word 'green,' but it's an idea that I relate to. It's not about wearing burlap sacks and making dinner in the dark because we're not going to light our homes. It's not about trying to conquer nature, but about working with it so that we tap into its abundance, its pleasures.